calling all intelligent minds...
today i was looking back over malachi 4:6 where the last words of the old testament are "or else I will come and strike the land with a curse." scary words to end the old testament! if you think that's scary, look at why He would strike them with a curse... btw, this has nothing to do with the calling the "intelligent minds" - only how all of this got started and something i thought interesting!
ok, so after looking at the last passage, i looked up to malachi 3:6 and it says, "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." also in numbers 23:19 it says, "...nor a son of man, that he should change his mind." yet another comes from malachi 3:6, " the LORD do not change..." along with other passages speaking of how God cannot change.
then we look at exodus 32:11-15. in verse 14 is says, "then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." (emphasis mine) in genesis 6:6 is states, "the LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain."
He can't be both changeable and unchangeable - or can He?
don't worry, my friends, i'm not going into this thing of questioning the bible or God. i have my thoughts on these passages, just wanted to see what others had to say or thought about them. looking forward to the thoughts from all of my bright peoples! :-)
ok, so after looking at the last passage, i looked up to malachi 3:6 and it says, "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." also in numbers 23:19 it says, "...nor a son of man, that he should change his mind." yet another comes from malachi 3:6, " the LORD do not change..." along with other passages speaking of how God cannot change.
then we look at exodus 32:11-15. in verse 14 is says, "then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." (emphasis mine) in genesis 6:6 is states, "the LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain."
He can't be both changeable and unchangeable - or can He?
don't worry, my friends, i'm not going into this thing of questioning the bible or God. i have my thoughts on these passages, just wanted to see what others had to say or thought about them. looking forward to the thoughts from all of my bright peoples! :-)
posted by no_average_girl at 9:50 AM
23 Comments:
That's a really good question...don't worry, it doesn't sound like you're questioning God or the Bible! I have questions like that all the time! Unfortunately you need an intelligent-er mind than mine to answer your question, lol.
Dear M. It's perfectly natural to question things now and then. After all we're hardly God who knows it all. LOL!
I think that what those passages are indicating is that sometimes God will threaten but then the prayers of the faithful and righteous stay His hand and He relents to their prayers b/c above all He is merciful. He will do that at times when His faithful intercede on the behalf of individuals, groups or nations with prayer and sometimes fasting as well.
God can change His threats, what He can not do is change His promises. Even so, it is only a matter of time when His patience runs out on the world turning their back on Him and making a mockery of Him. That is when He will call His beloved followers home and then His wrath will pur out on the world that still rejects him.
I can go into it more in depth but I'm at work right now and at the end of my break.
God bless your sincere questioning heart. It's one of the ways that we grow in our faith and daily walk.
hmmm...i'm gonna have to think about this one.
Wow! Tough question.
I was just reading on this last night. Grudem says God is unchangeable "not in every way that we might imagine, but only in ways that scripture itself affirms."
He is unchangeable in His character, being, and perfections, but not in His emotions or his dealings with humans.
With that being said I'm not sure if I agree or not. I've not studied it enough to have come to a dogmatic position. The question also deals with the question of whether God is in time or not. (Don’t ask I don't know, my guess is outside of time ;-)
The Westminster Confession says God has the attribute of "impassibility" which means He does not even have passion (emotions) like us. See Acts 14:15. You could take from that verse that God does not have "like Passions" as men. Although, I don't know if this is conclusive enough for me.
Regarding God relenting there are two ways of looking at it. God in His Omniscience knows exactly what was really going to happen in every situation. In King Hezekiah's situation God said He was going to die, but then Hezekiah prayed and God gave him 15 more years. Did God lie? The answer is obviously no. In the situation as it was, Hezekiah would have died, but something changed. Hezekiah prayed, now this is a new situation. Sounds strange, but it goes back to is God in time or not.
As far as His emotions go, I lean toward God having the attribute of impassibility, because if God is really outside of time He doesn’t do things chronologically. He does everything at the same time (or without it). If there is something I have done (chose any of the thousands of sins I’ve committed) that He hates, He has hated it eternally, but as he deals with me in time, it seems he has hated it back then but now doesn’t hate it about me because I no longer do it.
This question is like throwing a 100 mph fast ball to a guy that only has the skill to hit a 60 mph one. So if this comment didn’t make any sense it’s probably because I only hit a foul. Here are some guys who can hit the 100 mph fast ball…
Augustus Strong- Systematic Theology, See Pages. 243-303
Charles Hodge – Systematic Theology Vol 1 p 366-93
Louis Berkhof – Systematic Theology 47-63
These authors speak of God’s incommunicable attributes, attributes of God which we do not posses as humans. God’s Immutability is one of them and should be address in these sections.
God Bless,
Doug
i may be thinking wrong but wasn't there also a time that God said something to moses about just letting the children of israel go ahead and destroy themselves completely but moses talked and pleaded with God and God changed His mind? i'll see if i can find that.
but this don't help with your question...still pondering!
Radical one, your are right. It's found in Ex. 32:9-14.
Doug
Different writers there have different views; so much so that they can contradict each other.
I think God has the ability to react to peoples' actions.
I don't think that God ever actually changes His mind. There is a theological term called "anthropomorphism" which is a description of an attribute or action of God in human terms. I think that the Biblical references to God changing His mind refer to the writers perception of what God was going to do if man did not change. I could be wrong, but after much thought and discussion on this very issue the last few weeks, this is the conclusion to which I have come.
Well, God is still unchangable, but His mercies are great. Just look at us...He has forgiven so much in my life and sometimes I am amazed that He still loves me.
But back to your questions. I think God changes His mind, because He wants His people to repent and return to Him. Listen to this passage from Peter:
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."~ 2 Peter 3:9.
I think it is great that you are raising those kind of questions. You know. God wants us to be close to Him (although we might not understand all He does on this side of heaven)and sometimes we just have to raise those kind of questions. :)
In His grip
~Eph2810
God's ways are so far above our own that it's hard to even guess at the mind of God.
God does not change in His nature or his being, ever. I don't believe God can ever "change His mind" because He knows all things: past, present, and future.
However, I have often wondered about God's being "grieved that he had made man".
How can God, who knows all, sets everything in motion, sees and knows the end of his handiwork and all things from the very inception of creation (after all, the plan of salvation was set in place from the foundation of the Earth, so God knew man would sin and fall), be sorry or sad that he did something?
To be sorry or "grieved" that one did something is to acknowledge, in most human circumstances, a mistake.
Can God make mistakes?
You hit on a very good question, and it'll take more than my modest understanding to unravel the question, but it IS a good one that deserves an answer.
Personally, I lean toward a shortcoming in man's understanding of God's mind, as opposed to any flaw in God's character.
If you get a good answer, let us know!
Thanks for stopping by my blog and the nice comments. It's always good to meet other Georgia folks!
wow, some really, really good thoughts on here. and after some thought and praying on this, i almost ended up with even more questions. but i think i might have a few more answers than i did....anyway, is this possible?
God's mission, God's love, never changes but His plans can. like this...as a mom (parent), my mission for my children are always the same. also, my love for them is always the same. but because their needs are different, my mercy and grace allows me to give them what they need. and especially when they "talk" to me and i see their heart, hear their plea, etc. it allows me to more of their heart and their attitude. of course, God is the perfect parent, and He can already know our heart, attitude, etc, but we know that He wants us to communicate and talk with Him.
that seems really simple, but oh well, i reckon i'm just pretty simple minded. but what if we really are that important to him that just because we ask, or make our wishes known to Him, He sometimes changes His mind? o dear, i dunno that just sounds so, um so contrary to what i've always thought. maybe i don't think i'm really that important to Him? like i said, i just keep getting more questions.
gotta run. stay sweet. keep it real!
I love when people bring up these great topics from scripture and really search them out.
This question is like the question "Can God make a rock which he can't pick up" hehe
The answer Yes God can do all things.
Then you may ask but then he can't pick it up?
Another thing can God go against His word the answer is No for the Lord is bound by His word.
So can God change His mind?
Well we know from scripture that the Lord is Sovereign (Takes council from no man and answers to no man) In other words he doesn't consult anyone He just does as he wishes when He wishes.
Pretty scary hey.
At the same time there are verses which say He is in us to do and to will according to His good pleasure.
So in the case of the Lord relenting or changing his mind I would say this. The Lord relented because it was Him who put the desire in the heart of Moses to plead for His people. Was this not a parallel with Christ on the Cross? Was Moses asking God to do something outside His will? Of course not it was the Lord who put the desire in the heart of Moses to plead for the people and Because of this the Lord is Justified in relenting.
Another example of this is with Abraham in Genesis 18:24 when God wanted to destroy Sodom "If there are 50 godly men will you destroy them with the wicked?" Then 45, Then 40 then finally
"Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose 10 are found there?"
Now it looks here like the Lord contradicts the scripture. And yes you can get the Lord to change His mind. But again was it not the Lord who put this desire for the safety of the Godly men in Abraham's heart?
Thinking along these lines what about Pharaoh whom the Lord hardened?
Hi No Average Girl...
This is a great question. You asked, "He can't be both changeable and unchangeable - or can He?" It seems to me that the passages you cite indicate his unchangeablity (is that a word?) in ways that few incidents in history can.
Before I say anything else, I want to establish, though (and I think you will agree with me), that God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), and in all ways the most perfect being ever to exist throughout eternity.
God is both a perfectly just and a perfectly merciful God. This is a concept I used to struggle with a lot. As a perfectly just God (and as a perfect God), he cannot abide sin, he cannot tolerate it, and we should all be condemned to hell forever and ever and ever as just punishment for our sin. As a perfectly merciful God, no one should ever be condemned to hell. How can these two be one?
This is easier to see in the New Testament. As a perfectly just and merciful God, he sent his son to die in our place. Jesus has taken the penalty for our sins (satisfying God's demand for justice), and we all have the opportunity to abide with him in heaven for all eternity (satisfying God's demand for mercy).
The Exodus 32 passage which you cite discusses the Israelites making a Golden Calf while Moses is on Mount Sinai, receiving the Ten Commandments. As a perfect God, the Lord cannot stand by while the Israelites (his chosen people!) create a golden idol. That's the just God. He cannot stand by while his chosen people disobey him, even disown him! Yet at the same time, God loves us and wants to have mercy on us. He wants us to be with him in heaven. So, at the pleadings of Moses, a man of great faith, the Lord relented and did not bring upon the Israelites the punishment he had threatened. Note, though, that in God's justice the Israelites did not go unpunished. See v. 35- "And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made."
The Genesis 6 passage discusses the world before God destroyed the earth through Noah's flood. In Genesis 6:6, "The Lord was grieved that he had made man on earth..." A just God would have never made man to begin with. We know he is omnipotent and omniscient - he knew before he ever created Adam and Eve that they would eat the fruit and betray him. A truly just God would have just reveled in his perfection and never created an imperfect creature such as a human. But God is so full of love, so full of mercy, that it seems to me he couldn't NOT create humans. See, No Average Girl, I think you know as well as anyone that we desire to be loved, and God is the same way. He HAD to create something that he could love.
It reminds me of my pets. I owned a hamster because I loved hamsters, and because I just had so much love to share. It reminds me also of an old camp song I sang as a child. "Love is nothing 'til you give it away - you'll end up having more."
I was going to abbreviate your name, but I didn’t think you’d appreciate “nag”, so …
No Average Girl,
Excellent question. I picked out some comments that stood out to me, and was going to comment on each, but I’m realizing that I don’t currently have the time, nor do I want to make a huge comment … so I’ve commented on this first one and hope to comment on others later. Please don’t take any of these as me being critical. I just found them interesting and hoped to add to a great post and discussion.
nic said …
I think that what those passages are indicating is that sometimes God will threaten but then the prayers of the faithful and righteous stay His hand and He relents to their prayers b/c above all He is merciful.
Prayer is powerful, but if it actually changes the mind of God, then couldn’t we say that (in these cases) our ways are higher than His? We need to remember that God knows the future, His knowledge is perfect, His wisdom is beyond measure, and He promises to work all things for good to those who love Him. So … if He knows the future, is wiser than me, and promises my good, why would I trust and prefer my knowledge by asking Him to change? Obviously we are to pray and ask God. But we need to ask according to His will, trusting the outcome to Him, for He is perfect AND desires our good. Recognize that prayer does not inform God, and that God not only ordains the outcome but also ordains the means for the outcome … or said another way, God has planned what will happen, and He has also planned that you would pray for that outcome and has given you the pleasure of being involved in the process that brings about the outcome that brings Him most glory.
I believe God planned to relent, or, from our perspective, planned that we see Him as "changing His mind", but all are ordained by Him. He ordains the outcome and the means. He ordains mercy. He ordains us viewing this mercy so that we would recognize what we deserve and that He is gracious. He even planned that they respond to the threat, and that this response would be a means for bringing about what He certainly knew He would do. For after all, He is omniscient isn’t He?
Yikes! And I wanted to keep this comment from being huge?!!
Want to add a little to the comment by Righteous Sinner (BTW great comment). You are right when you say that we don't change the will of God through prayer; we are aligning our will to God's will for us when we pray ~ but that is just my humble opinion. Sometimes it is hard for us to 'accept' His will, but He still knows what's best for us.
hmmm, ben run, that's an interesting thought!
This entire discussion (or really the topic of God's knowledge and will) sounds like the issue raised by Open-Theists.
Below is a link to an article on the competing views.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/002/30.34.html
Personally, I think that the view the Bible expresses is one in which God does not change His mind, but has already planned all things. The issue of Him relenting - the editorial does a great job summing it up.
I quote the article below . . .
At the heart of the idea of anthropomorphism is the idea that though we speak of God by means of human analogy, we do not have access to the inner workings of his mind. Thus the classical approach makes no attempt to psychologize God in human terms. It follows the prophet Samuel's idea that God "is not a man that he should repent" (1 Sam. 15:29, RSV).
Here’s some information from the Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible (note on Gen 6:6) concerning the phrase “The LORD was grieved” –
The Hebrew here is also translated “changed his mind,” a reference to a change of attitude and action. This is not a reference to God’s immutable character, eternal plan or covenant promises (see Nu 23:19; 1 Sa 15:29). Instead, it refers to God’s providential involvement in history. When people sin or repent of sin, God responds in a variety of ways (Ex 32:12,14; 1Sa 15:11; 2Sa 24:16; Jer 18:9-10; Am 7:3,6).
God does interact and involve himself in history. He does respond to people, but that he does is no proof of him being unaware of the actions of people, gathering new information, and then “changing his mind”. God’s knowledge is perfect, including future events. If this is true, and scripture indicates that it is, then it would be illogical to understand these “changes” as a result of him being unaware of what people would do, learning from their actions, and then reacting. We cannot reconcile this error with the attribute of omniscience.
The Open Theist attempts to reconcile these by saying God knows everything that exists, but the decisions of men do not exist until men make them, therefore God only knows the possibilities and not the future that has yet to come into existence. This is sheer nonsense and heretical, ignoring that scripture indicates only God can tell the future (Is 41:21-23), and false gods cannot. This also seems to ignore that biblical prophecy would be impossible, as its fulfillment depends on the future decisions of men that God must know in advance. Those who buy into this teaching are ultimately abandoning God and following an idol.
History is like a grand play, and God is both the writer of history, and an actor playing a role within history. From our perspective (people in the play) God changes his mind, but from the perspective of God the writer, it was written that he would behave exactly as he did.
Amen!
Righteous Sinner made a comment saying, "I believe God planned to relent, or, from our perspective, planned that we see Him as "changing His mind".....He ordains us viewing this mercy so that we would recognize what we deserve and that He is gracious. He even planned that they respond to the threat, and that this response would be a means for bringing about what He certainly knew He would do".
That is just beautiful, and I think he is right on the money.
God never changes, and is all knowing, of all things past and future.
However, the all-knowing, all powerful God having mercy and showing grace toward those who believed in and worshipped him (Noah and his family)is a powerful lesson for mankind. After all, all of mankind are sinners and deserve to die, by whatever hand God would choose to deliver that judgement.
It's also a good example for the human realm, too: an example of how the mighty should be gracious and merciful toward the weak but faithful.
I think it is also a forshadowing of things to come, when God would, by his own design, grant grace and mercy to those that choose to believe in and follow Jesus.
After all, the salvation plan WAS layed from the foundations of the earth. That makes makes God's actions, in the salvation of Noah in Genesis, and in the salvation of mankind through Jesus in the New Testament, consistant with each other.
God. The Un(changing) Cola.
"Hey, I liked your blog" . . . now let me sell you something.
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